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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 14, 2003 2:53am
Forum: etree Subject: Previewing musical style, etc

Diana Trees brought up a previous LMA-related topic on the movies board, we can continue discussion here if you like. I'll just paste 'em over:

Diana Trees wrote:
I love the addition of the sound archives, because it gives me the chance to make open source movies for release.

But ... the shn files are huge, downloads are forever, just to find out the music isn't something I'd want to work with.

Could we have a tiny MP3 preview of the sound? Kind of like the animated gif previews of the movies. I'd think it would actually save on bandwidth.


Jon Aizen replied:
I'd post this thought to the etree forum - it's likely to generate interesting discussion. I, personally, am in favor of generating MP3 previews.

Diana Hamilton replied:
There are both bands (some here already) and tapers (also here) that specifically forbid putting their material into mp3, and still others that aren't explicit about it but reportedly aren't comfortable with it. So it couldn't be an automatic thing here- it would take screening.

DianaT replied:
I don't want to see the whole thing scrunched: just an MP3 preview to get an idea of the nature of the tune. I know this is peculiar to me, in that I deal *only* with female musicians, but trying to guess the type of music and whether a band features a Fem lead is nearly impossible to discern from the band's name.

That means I have to download at 30-megabyte + tune to find out whether it's something I want to work with. It wastes this site's bandwidth, and is so time-consuming for me that I've given up trying to d/l the tunes.


This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-03-14 10:53:12

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 14, 2003 5:08am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Bands with women in lineups

BTW, I know of a couple bands here with female members where you wouldn't know from the names: Eddie From Ohio, Cowboy Junkies.

...I also remembered- Rusted Root, People Like Us, The Recipe...

Folks, know of others?

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-03-14 13:08:41

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Mar 14, 2003 3:16am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Bands with women in lineups

Fat Chelsea, Annie Bethancourt

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Poster: homelessjoe Date: Mar 14, 2003 9:53pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Bands with women in lineups

Living Daylights, Deep Banana Blackout, Bombsquad, Trey Anastasio Band, Antigone Rising, Mountains of Venus, Belizbeha...

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Poster: hendge Date: Mar 14, 2003 5:06am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Bands with women in lineups

Cecilia, Lo Faber Band, The Recipe ... feature prominent female members (though not necessarily in a lead vox role).

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Poster: Erich Date: Mar 14, 2003 3:35am
Forum: etree Subject: MP3s on the archive.

There are both bands (some here already) and tapers (also here) that specifically forbid putting their material into mp3, and still others that aren't explicit about it but reportedly aren't comfortable with it. So it couldn't be an automatic thing here- it would take screening.

My opinion isnt very well liked in the trading community because of this, but i think this no mp3 thing with tapers is a crock. Look at it logicaly here, youve got this 1.3GB show that you want to download but want to preview first. taking 2 songs and turning them to 96kbps MP3s is not going to dilute the trading pool, especialy since youve got the shns RIGHT NEXT TO THEM. I say 96 and not 128 so the quality is noticable as well, youre doing this as a preview and not as something you can pass off to burn.

I know many tapers and traders are about how MP3s will ruin stuff. I understand this and agree, yet think that the restriction on the recordings is stupid if youre doing it for preview or personal purposes. The official Tim Reynolds ftp, when it was up, offered everything in SHN and MP3 in order to please both crowds, and there are no issues with MP3 sourced shows in the tim trading pool because of it. Im not saying put MP3 shows on the archive, thats stupid, but putting one or two songs up despite the "tapers permission" bullshit isnt going to harm anything. Whats more, you can put an ID tag that says "do not burn to cd, please visit [url] for full lossless show". MP3s are not cancer. They're bad for trading, but not for listening.

edit: by the way, if a band says they specificaly dont want it up there, despite me thinking that would be dumb id say sure, respect their wishes. If the taper says it though, the taper isnt the band. I have yet to see anything that says they have any right outside convenience to dictate what happens with their recording. proove me otherwise and i'll change my stance.

This post was modified by Erich on 2003-03-14 11:35:46

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Poster: dgrayshn Date: Mar 14, 2003 4:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

two points I would like to add..

#1 Taking that stance against tapers.. While you might think tapers dont have any say, they too could perhaps go on *strike*... might sound silly but they are the ones taping the shows they can just stop then you dont have anything to work with now do you.

#2 While I am a taper and I am all for SHN and not MP3. I will say that I dont see a problem with preview tracks as long as the track is not the entire song. Like if 15 seconds are cut off...might seem a bit much but I dont want these tracks showing up on Kazaa for example.

Just my two cents
-m

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Poster: Erich Date: Mar 14, 2003 4:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

#1 Taking that stance against tapers.. While you might think tapers dont have any say, they too could perhaps go on *strike*... might sound silly but they are the ones taping the shows they can just stop then you dont have anything to work with now do you.

thats a rediculous argument though. If a taper is so full of himself that making MP3s for a reason thats logical, rational, and helpful (or just personal for that matter) causes him/her to stop taping, then id rather not deal with that type of taper anyway. The same way im not making light of what they do by degenerating the trade pool, its an insult to the intelligence of the people willing to set up certain perameters on lossy file encoding and willing to educate instead of allienate. Mind you i realize not everyone is saavy and there are those that are computer illiterate to everything outside winamp > mp3, but thats why you educate. Throwing a tantrum and going "on strike" would make me want to not support that taper on principle.

#2 While I am a taper and I am all for SHN and not MP3. I will say that I dont see a problem with preview tracks as long as the track is not the entire song. Like if 15 seconds are cut off...might seem a bit much but I dont want these tracks showing up on Kazaa for example.

if the band is popular enough to show up on kazaa, they will regardless of the precausion you use. Might as well make it of a lower quality (96 or lower) with a note that says where you can download a better quality version of the full set than truncate the MP3. Compramise and put a song that segues seamlessly to another song. it'll sound like its cut, but its really not.

I know as well as you that lossless is the way to go. But if you dont approach the people who use MP3 correctly, it wont do a bit of difference. Whether or not someone accepts, understands, or cares, is not up to you, and "cutting them off" is a good way of making sure they wont learn. There are many bands whos tapes were ruined by MP3 and i understand / accept that, and thats why Im more than willing to show people the better way of handling rcordings... but you ned to educate and not allienate, otherwise it'll have a negative effect in the long run on the community.

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Mar 14, 2003 5:26am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

Bottom line is that while you may not like it, tapers spend a lot of time and money doing what they do, and have earned the right to say how their material, or any portion of it, is distributed (secondary to the band's rights of course). Pissing off the tapers would do nothing other than discourage them from making their tapes available.
Personally, I am a taper and would definitely not want any portion of my tapes converted to 96 kbps mp3s. However, I wouldn't have a problem with posting 15 second (or so) clips of tracks from my tapes at 192 kbps + for preview purposes. But this is a decision that is up to the individual taper, not anyone else.

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Poster: Erich Date: Mar 14, 2003 6:18am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

Bottom line is that while you may not like it, tapers spend a lot of time and money doing what they do, and have earned the right to say how their material, or any portion of it, is distributed (secondary to the band's rights of course). Pissing off the tapers would do nothing other than discourage them from making their tapes available.
Personally, I am a taper and would definitely not want any portion of my tapes converted to 96 kbps mp3s. However, I wouldn't have a problem with posting 15 second (or so) clips of tracks from my tapes at 192 kbps + for preview purposes. But this is a decision that is up to the individual taper, not anyone else.


there is nothing that says you have sole rights to how your tape is spread, sorry. You spend lots of money, thats great, and i appreciate that, yeah, but once im told how i have to handle a recording and at what temperature it needs to be outside before i can listen to track 8, i claim bullshit. Sorry, nothings going to change my stance on that, and if that causes folks like you to stop taping then unfortunatly thats your problem and not mine.

If i wanted to preview a track, and you put 15 seconds of an MP3 up for that reason, no matter what the bitrate was, it would do nothing. 15-30 seconds of any phish song can sound exactly the same to me. granted i dont like phish, but trying to sell me on 1/24th of a song isnt the way to go either.

I dont see how your permission is necessary to do anything with the tape, unless you were being directly asked to do something where your doing it would make a difference in the quality of the outcome. I MP3 shows that i get to send to a few friends who wouldnt hear it otherwise, and im part of a lot of communities that send out select mp3s of shows for a taster before the shns are released. I dont see how doing the same thing for a public archive that has the lossless show right next to it is going to do anything negative to anyone, but im sure if you want a written request sheet it can be created and mailed to you with all speed.

This is nothing personal, I just dislike the way that many of the tapers go about attempting to dictate how people should listen to music that doesnt belong to them.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbleblanc Date: Mar 14, 2003 10:03pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

tapers have earned the right to say how their material, or any portion of it, is distributed

I question this statement. In my opinion, once you start serving out your tape to the electronic community it stops being YOUR tape and now belongs to 2 parties:

1. The band.
2. The fans.

If your permission is asked before it takes another format, that's a polite courtesy, not a requirement.

Mainly, I just don't like the whole "ownership" and "say" junk. If someone encodes an MP3 out of a SHN that originated from me for convenience sake, it's fine with me. I've got my SHN's, and they're still in the Archive for anyone else. At least they're listening to good music and not all the MTV crap. (no offense MTV fans) For the most part, I'm sure there are enough traders out there to educate those folks that SHN is the way to go if you're gonna trade or archive the show.

Pissing off the tapers would do nothing other than discourage them from making their tapes available.

This may be true, but making mp3 samples of the taper's work shouldn't piss off anyone. It helps bring in some more fans to the bands they tape. Besides, the SHN's are readily available from this site as well.

-Brad

P.S. For what it's worth, I was formerly of the mind that mp3's shouldn't be here. Now I welcome them with open arms for the same reason mentioned above by Diana Trees - it's sooo much easier to sample music with them than SHN's, and most the bands here I've never listened to. If I decide that I want to try out some other bands, I don't want to have to wait an hour for a 50MB file only to figure out I don't care for their music.

This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2003-03-15 06:03:59

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Poster: David Nelson Date: Mar 15, 2003 6:34am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

I think it would be very ideal if there was the ability to quickly sample a show before downloading. The encoding rate should be low enough for streaming broadcast.

Don't think of having mp3's on here as a means of distribution, but rather like an audio thumbnail of a show you're intersted in.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 14, 2003 4:34am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

Heck, won't cut-off tracks end up on Kazaa anyway? I hear it's something of an "industry" right now... ;)

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Mar 14, 2003 5:05am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

I personally like the following ideas brought up:

1) Make only portions of several tracks available. This goes along with the idea of these being previews only. No need for the full track.

2) Put a note in the ID3 tag with information on obtaining the full and lossless source. I wouldn't go so far as putting details page URLs in the ID3 because those could conceivaably change. I'd just put in the base URL for the LMA.

I'm not particularly in favor of making them 96kbs, particularly if only a portion of the track is made available. With higher bit-rate MP3s people could use the previews to compare sources, determine audience levels, and so on.

Those are just my thoughts. Feedback sought.

Jon

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Poster: Erich Date: Mar 14, 2003 5:28am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

1) Make only portions of several tracks available. This goes along with the idea of these being previews only. No need for the full track

The reason i dont like the partial track idea is because if I want to browse for a new artist to listen to, I may not be sold on half the song. I downloaded a few tracks from SPP and UM and didnt like them, but i made that assesment after listening to the whole track. To chop off half or give only a minute or two wouldnt do the song justice, but to cut only a part of the end as sort of a watermark is assinine, IMHO. You can easily compramise and find one or two shorter songs.

As for source comparison, youre right, a higher bitrate would be necessary. But at the same time i would find it necessary to keep the entire song in tact to get a full scope of the comparison. Again, you can just encode a shorter tune or something of the sort.

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Poster: DianaTrees Date: Mar 14, 2003 5:56am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

I have to agree. Though when I think of a sample, I'm figuring no more than a 10-15 second clip. That should give most folks an idea of what the band sounds like.

I have visited several band sites, but many don't put clips on the Web either. Makes it frustrating.

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Poster: dgrayshn Date: Mar 14, 2003 5:58am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

I'm curious to know why someone who doesn't tape or isn't part of said band thinks he is right over everyone else. (I'm sorry but the correct me if im wrong doesn't do it for me)

I have plenty of shows which I need to convert and add them to the archive. This takes time out of my life but I am doing it because i love it. I certainly feel that something I put in up to half a days work is something I have a say over how it is used. I would also like to point out that some bands are very specific over what type/quality shows they want being spread. I am personally involved with two bands on this archive and 3rd to be added soon. None of these 3 groups want mp3 sourced tracks or shows floating around. But if one was to take a sample track and cut off a litle bit then make that available i think they would be willing to compromise. But i see this becoming a bit too involved because I personally feel each band should be contacted.

but that is just me
-matt

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffchops11 Date: Mar 14, 2003 6:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

just following along with the discussion. i'm just curious when peeps say that they(the tapers) or the band don't want their tracks converted into mp3 format. i'm personally not a big mp3 user.. but i know that there are more pieces of software than people in china that convert wavs or shns to mp3. and i've seen nearly every show i've ever downloaded floating around someplace as an mp3 source. i'm just thinking if people are going to convert them anyway.. might as well do it right here for the "preview" purposes. wow that was long winded and i don't think i got my point across. Try again: Bands dont want their stuff converted into mp3.. but it's going to happen.. it's legal.. it's common.. it's not preventable.. i don't think one track previews will hurt.

whew.. now that i'm done with that everyone have fun arguing :) i support whatever goes.. i like to "preview" a band by downloading a whole show, i don't think either 15 seconds or one track can do them justice anyway.

out like a fat kid in dodgeball

cheers
ed

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Mar 14, 2003 6:32am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

Like I said in another post, *I* personally do not have a problem with a sample of a track of my show, or sometimes even an entire track being used for a specific purpose. Just a few weeks ago Dan at countingcrows.com asked to use an mp3 clip of a song from a show I taped and I was thrilled.
I just think this is an individual decision that should be left up to the taper. I believe we have earned that right, legal or not. Some people seem to disagree with me, and that's fine too. That is the great thing about this country.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbleblanc Date: Mar 14, 2003 9:49pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s and taper rights

I just think this is an individual decision that should be left up to the taper. I believe we have earned that right.

Humbly, I don't think we have.

The music belongs to the artists performing it, not to tapers dictating (yes, that's right, dictating) how everyone else has to download it. Taping isn't a right, and doesn't earn you anything other than the ability to bring your mic stand and deck into a show.

In this whole discussion about formats, I think many of you fail to remember WHY we are given the privelege to record these bands' performances - the bands realize that the recordings will make it out to your friends and their friends etc... and they hope that the tapers will be enthralled enough with their performance to WANT to share their music, no matter how it's done. Hand it out, tree it, put it on a server, blast it in your car with the windows down, make some minidiscs for your friend who doesn't use CD's cause she's always scratching em, bring it to the bar and ask the bartender to play 3 songs for you, give him $10 to do it, give him another $5 to turn it up, and let him have the discs for tomorrow night. :)

Maybe it's an assumption, but I believe most the bands here would feel that the tapers were missing the bus if they found that you were requiring all traders and fans to adopt to the format you like best. That's like giving a kid an ice-cream cone and telling the him or her how to eat it.

We didn't get into this hobby for lossless audio, we got in it because we dig music. MP3 isn't the best sounding format, but it's a lot more convenient and gets people involved. If we allow MP3 samples, it brings more folks to the bands here, it opens the door for them to learn about SHN, FLAC and lossless audio, and could encourage more folks to follow our bands. Don't you think that's what the artists want? Isn't that more important than what you, as a taper, want? (and why isn't that what you want?)

Lastly, adding a few MP3 samples won't eliminate the SHN/FLAC from this site. If you don't like them, we sure as hell aren't telling you that you HAVE to try the MP3's before you download the SHN's. The anti-mp3 folks can go about their business and ignore them. If the band wants to get involved in formats and declines on MP3, the site will obviously respect that.

My 2 cents are on the table, I end my rant.

-Brad

This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2003-03-15 05:49:06

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Poster: kwaved Date: Mar 15, 2003 2:21pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s and taper rights


To me once a recording is seeded then it enters public domain. Tapers that add things like "don't convert to MP3" in their info files are quite presumptuous, what I (or anyone) does with a seed, freely traded, is no ones business but my (their) own.

I agree the threat of SHN>MP3>AUDIO>WAV>SHN is something to be concerned about but if one has a good info file from reliable traders/tapers then this is a mostly mitigated problem.

With seeds with source info like ?>DAT>?>?>AUDIO CDR>?>SHN then caveat emptor. If it sounds good to you then fine, but for "serious" traders this is a warning sign that any number of problems might exist with the seed.

Tapers definitely do not "own" their seeds once they enter the trading community, if anyone "owns" the seed it is the band. With seeds on archive.org the content is definitely in the public domain and, IMO, it is up to the band and the downloaders to do with as they please.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 15, 2003 9:12pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: LMA is not public domain

seeds on archive.org the content is definitely in the public domain

No, no, no, this is not the case! The artists here do hold copyrights and have just granted us limited permission to enjoy it here.

I found this useful reference link:
http://www.pdinfo.com/

There's stuff about recordings there, too.

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Poster: kwaved Date: Mar 16, 2003 2:44am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: LMA is not public domain

My apologies for the misuse of the word "public domain" ... I understand completely that the artist retains their rights to the recordings, but the taper, IMO, has no rights explicit or implicit. Any seed once freely traded can be manipulated, compressed, equalized, etc. regardless of the wishes of the taper/seeder to the contrary. Of course common courtesy and the golden rule do apply.

This post was modified by kwaved on 2003-03-16 10:44:05

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 16, 2003 8:17am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: LMA is not public domain

the taper, IMO, has no rights explicit or implicit

But do your and Erich's assertions jibe with the comments on these help sheets, for instance?
http://www.pdinfo.com/record.htm
http://www.copyright.gov/register/sound.html

Interesting issue!

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-03-16 16:17:32

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Poster: Erich Date: Mar 16, 2003 9:36am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: LMA is not public domain

But do your and Erich's assertions jibe with the comments on these help sheets, for instance?
http://www.pdinfo.com/record.htm


This site details the public domain information regarding a sound recording that is created by the person creating the sound, though. I dont see how it applies to live music recording thats under a very enclosed set of policies.

http://www.copyright.gov/register/sound.html

copywriting the sound recording is to prevent others from claiming ownership of the particular recording and thereby using it for profit. an example would be copywriting my studio recording of my album so i can make sure its never used in a comercial. But as was mentioned this isnt applied to the music on the recording though, so i can make a new version of some songs to use for said comercial if i want. I do not know how the taping policies of the bands would interfier with someone doing this to a live recording, but im almost possitive it would. example, i tape a dmb show, and 'copywrite' it and all. Nissan wants to use Tripping Billies from that show to promote their new Nissan Frathouse SUV. I doubt my 'copywriting' the sound recording will override the bands decision as to whether or not it can be used for said commercial, especialy since these recordings are made under explicit conditions. If i could do that, what stops me from AUD recording the state of the union address and using Bush's voice to promote Budweiser? A record company owning the sound recordings of my first 4 albums, thereby overriding my say on whether it can be used for a greatest hits would be another example of how this copywrite would come to play.

The biggest thing, i think, that seperates these live recordings from these copywrite laws too is that despite them being allowed to be created, theyre still "unautherized" recordings, at least im almost sure theyre still considered such. Again, if it wasnt, what would stop me from aud recording a studio session seperately so i can market through the record company a greatest hits album? that would surely go to court in an instant.

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Poster: Erich Date: Mar 14, 2003 6:35am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

I'm curious to know why someone who doesn't tape or isn't part of said band thinks he is right over everyone else. (I'm sorry but the correct me if im wrong doesn't do it for me)

I have plenty of shows which I need to convert and add them to the archive. This takes time out of my life but I am doing it because i love it. I certainly feel that something I put in up to half a days work is something I have a say over how it is used. I would also like to point out that some bands are very specific over what type/quality shows they want being spread. I am personally involved with two bands on this archive and 3rd to be added soon. None of these 3 groups want mp3 sourced tracks or shows floating around. But if one was to take a sample track and cut off a litle bit then make that available i think they would be willing to compromise. But i see this becoming a bit too involved because I personally feel each band should be contacted.


I have plenty of shows i converted from folks that have dissapeared off the face of the earth as well. I dont tape, but im responsible for a lot of the shows for one particular artist here. I take exactly the same amount of time converting as you do. I dont tape, but these shows become my seeds. I have no right to dictate how theyre used because its NOT MY MUSIC. Its not yours either. If youre part of the band, then please, dictate all you want. If youre not, then you have no say, period. Its a misconception on the tapers part to say that they have the right to their recordings once they are released to the public, because they dont.

Personaly i think its silly to contact each band for MP3 permission, because seriously, whats their logic going to be? "um... the lossless show is right next to it and its not harming the trading pool... but this random guy that taped the show said no, so sorry guys, its not up to us anymore". Really now. No one is putting up MP3 shows in full anyway, so i doubt the bands youe involved with will mind a sampler, and if they do its illogical to the nth degree. and watermarking the shows with a 15 second cut is just stupid. whats the point? so that people who trade discs arent going to burn it? you mean you honestly think they'll download the entire show yet replace d01t06 with that mp3? or put in on a mix and try to sell it? i mean, whats the logic?

You have an expensive hobby. We appreciate that. If youre not in the band though, its not your say, and that unfortunatly the truth, unless you can find a law that claims otherwise.

This post was modified by Erich on 2003-03-14 14:35:49

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 14, 2003 10:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

and that unfortunatly the truth

Er, you'll want to reedit that phrase to read, "and that's my working hypothesis"... ;)

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Mar 14, 2003 5:31am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

Good idea Jonathan, but I still think this should be done on a show to show basis. Some tapers might not want any mp3s made of any part of their shows period, and I feel that their wishes should be respected.

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Poster: Erich Date: Mar 14, 2003 5:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

Good idea Jonathan, but I still think this should be done on a show to show basis. Some tapers might not want any mp3s made of any part of their shows period, and I feel that their wishes should be respected.

but see, this is what i mean. What right does the taper have to a show thats not even his own intelectual property and has become public domain through free trade? none, unless im missing some clause somewhere that circumvents the bands ownership. If a taper cant handle 2 song previews made for the sake of source comparison or show browsing, thats just rediculous. Honestly I think a lot of the reason the gigantic ******DO NOT ENCODE TO MP3 OR YOUR TESTICLES WILL WITHER OR YOUR PUSSY WILL ROT AND FALL IN THE TOILET****** messages are put on the txt files are to assert the fact that the taper has a bigger ego than the non tapers. People that understand that their recording is going to get MP3ed for one reason or another, like me sending an MP3 to a friend (uh oh!), dont put the testicle damning caution on their source files or at least append it with the notion that trading MP3s is bad but encoding for personal use is not.

[/rant]

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Mar 14, 2003 6:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

First of all, just because something is freely available does not mean its public domain. Second, I know a lot of tapers who copyright their tapes (you can copyright the recording, obviously the musicians own copyrights of the songs themselves), so your assertion that they have no rights to them is off base. A lot of tapers do this, btw, not because of ego but because it gives them legal recourse if people try to profit of their recordings (via ebay or any other matter).
You're entitled to your opinion but what you're not entitled to is dictating how someone who spent hours taping, converting, and posting a show for the community to enjoy should allow his tape to be distributed.

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Poster: Erich Date: Mar 14, 2003 6:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

First of all, just because something is freely available does not mean its public domain. Second, I know a lot of tapers who copyright their tapes (you can copyright the recording, obviously the musicians own copyrights of the songs themselves), so your assertion that they have no rights to them is off base. A lot of tapers do this, btw, not because of ego but because it gives them legal recourse if people try to profit of their recordings (via ebay or any other matter).
You're entitled to your opinion but what you're not entitled to is dictating how someone who spent hours taping, converting, and posting a show for the community to enjoy should allow his tape to be distributed.


please show me how this is done, give me an example, and show me any legal ramifications if i do not adhere to this "copywrite". Im seriously interested. I doubt that the disclaimer holds the same legal bearing as a terms of service agreement, but im very interested to see the process that a taper goes through just to make sure someone cant preview a track on a site dedicated to lossless trading.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 14, 2003 9:50am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Rights and things

Erich, see http://creativecommons.org/ for a few (not all, I guess) recent examples of how people can tailor their ownership rights to things, "some rights reserved". I'm neither a lawyer nor experienced in this area, just providing a pointer.

Interestingly, the 2 musicians interviewed in a prominent feature at the CC site discuss MP3 re their work (and are obviously on the other side of the coin from the people we've been discussing). Then one says, "...as a suggestion to the good people involved in this endeavor, it would be nice if this license could be applied specifically to a file format."

BTW, I see CC also has a "sampler CD":
http://creativecommons.org/extras/cd

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-03-14 17:50:35

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Mar 14, 2003 7:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

Honestly, I have no clue how it's done, as I've never gone to the trouble. I do know that it can be done, and from talking to my sister (who is an attorney), it's not a real easy thing to do (I guess it takes a lot of time). I don't know the legal ramifications, and I would assume most tapers who do it do so to prevent bootleggers from selling their shows, as I said above, not to keep people from spreading mp3s. My point was that you claimed tapers have no legal rights to their tapes, and this is not true in some cases.
And I will reiterate, just because something is "free" does not mean it is public domain. Linux is free and it is definitely not public domain. Try to sell Linux or distribute it outside of the GNU GPL and see how quickly you get sued.

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Poster: Erich Date: Mar 14, 2003 7:59am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

ok, maybe my terminology isnt exactly accurate, but hopefuly you get what im saying. And obviously you can protect things from being sold when the seller has no rights to that. thats basic copywrite protection, but i think thats the bands duty and not the taper. Whatever though, if the taper prevents illegal selling too then more power to them. But these recordings are technicaly protected by law regardless of what the tapers do to further protect them from illegal selling. Thats not the same as the taper saying im not allowed to convert to MP3 for whatever reason, in fact thats totaly different. I honestly dont think that a taper can get legaly prevent the encoding of their shows, and if they can, it seems the effort involved would be so ridiculously stupid considering not even highly protected studio recordings can be prevented from being encoded.

It was mentioned that asking the taper would be a curtosy, and i agree. I dont feel it a necessary one, but its a gesture saying that the fans respect the tapers important role in that shows quality. I feel the line is drawn though when someone claims to have sole rights to how that recording gets traded within the defined perameters of a bands trading policy (as in not resale, which is obviously illegal).

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Poster: Jhudson844 Date: Mar 14, 2003 9:15am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

Here's my thoughts on mp3. Being that I am generally respectful of others wishes irregardless of my own opinions I would not convert a show to mp3 and allow it up for distribution purposes if they specifically requested that it not be done. Granted I never encode shows to mp3 for distribution purposes, the only reason I encode anything to mp3 is for use in my discman that plays mp3 data discs which is nice for long roadtrips because I can put something absurd like 10 hours of music on one data disc.

My personal ethic with regard to shows I've taped is along the lines of what bleblac said. I'm just glad the music's getting spread since most of the shows on the archive that I have taped are from bands like Ancient Harmony, Mood Cultivation Project and Perpetual Groove. (and now that Moonshine Still has been added you will see some from those guys when the upload server is fixed). Those bands can use all the exposure they can get. A couple of them have taken my recordings themselves with my blessing and used the mp3s on their websites for audio samples. Always flattered when I see that and certainly never upset about it. If you are going to encode to mp3 you should only do so with soundboard recordings. I've learned this from listening to stuff on my discman that audience recordings encoded to mp3 are completely and entirely unlistenable. In raw .wav format I prefer the sound of an audience recording that captures the energy of the crowd and the true sound of the room. I definitely don't feel that mp3s need to be on the archive at all. There are plenty of mediums for that already with Kazaa/Furthur etc. I don't lose sleep over thinking of the possibility that lossy copies of my recordings are being spread in the trading pool. Responsible traders should be trading .shn-via electronic distribution methods if they have broadband, or via snail mail if not. I understand that some people may only have stand alone audio component burners, but then they shouldn't be trading for unsourced shows and in doing so insure they won't get anything from mp3. If they have a computer and are setting up trades for shows online then they ought to seriously consider shelling out $30 for an external USB burner on rebate if they have no computer burner so that they can start trading .shn. In doing so be more of an active contributer to the trading pool rather than essentially an end user since the stand alone burner person in this day and age is like the burnerless B&P person was a few years back. Tapers invest a lot in their equipment to get the recordings out there, so I don't think it's too much to ask to get folks to help in that effort to buy a computer burner and start trading .shn to help proliferate the recordings unless they are computerless.

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Poster: kwaved Date: Mar 14, 2003 6:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

The archive isn't all things to all people. For those that want samples petition the bands in question to make mp3 samples available from their websites. The notion that mp3 content would be here seems like too much of paradigm shift for very little payoff.

Hey download 1 track in SHN for a sample --- now there is an idea, eh ?


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Poster: dgrayshn Date: Mar 14, 2003 6:15am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: MP3s on the archive.

I was thinking of suggesting that too and I am all in favor of SHN over mp3 but I do understand the frustration of those dial-up users out there.. if they are going to spend hours and hours downloading a little help would be nice..compromise can work here with what I have suggested.. guess we will see what happens

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Mar 14, 2003 6:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Post Reviews!

How about this -
Instead of us wasting our time with this argument, we don't we all spend the time reviewing some shows we've downloaded, since that's supposed to be the way people can tell what they are going to get.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Mar 14, 2003 6:51am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Post Reviews!

This is a great suggestion (and as Erich says, it's not quite the same), but doesn't help folks like DianaTrees.

Perhaps having a bio section for each band would be useful - describing the members, the musical genre(s), "similar" artists and so on. Perhaps this section could be searchable too.

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Poster: Erich Date: Mar 14, 2003 7:04am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Post Reviews!

Perhaps having a bio section for each band would be useful - describing the members, the musical genre(s), "similar" artists and so on. Perhaps this section could be searchable too.

I think thats a great idea, a general page regarding the music type and such. "If you like this artist/group, we recomend:" would be great too. maybe even make it open for discussion, to see fan descriptions, the same way reviews are made for each show.

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Poster: Erich Date: Mar 14, 2003 6:41am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Post Reviews!

How about this -
Instead of us wasting our time with this argument, we don't we all spend the time reviewing some shows we've downloaded, since that's supposed to be the way people can tell what they are going to get.


good call. It wouldnt be the same, but its at least a help to those that are familiar with the bands already.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 14, 2003 3:07am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Previewing musical style, etc

Here's a possible (if inelegant) workaround for figuring out what some bands are like, their lineups, etc:

From the LMA main page, on the left you will see a link for "Trade-Friendly Band Information". After it loads, you can click on a band name, and you will see links for their policy, plus a link to the official website for each. Official websites for these friendly bands are generally pretty good- lots are net-savvy. They usually have bios (lineups) and often mp3 clips to boot.

A caution: Almost every band here strictly forbids commercial use of their material, so you would not be able to incorporate many things in any commercial productions, if that's what you plan. It is not public domain- they have just granted us fans a privilege to enjoy their music in this noncommercial way.

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-03-14 11:07:42